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 Post subject: reports of police raid?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:14 pm 
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I heard a rumor about a recent police raid at Toy Chest. Anyone have any info on the raid or has anyone visited recently to report on the status of dances at the club?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:09 pm 
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I was there for a couple hours this past Friday night but didn't hear anything about it. I didn't get any dances but my buddy did and he said extras were definitely available.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:59 am 
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The Toy Chest raid evidently occurred on Saturday night, December 1. So it will be interesting to see if it has any effect on the the Toy Chest or the larger Detroit strip club scene.

I don't know the focus of the police raid but evidently a number of customers were issued citations for improper touching (maybe lewd conduct?). I have to question the priorities of a police department that would target a strip club and issue citations for improper touching. Is there any precedent for customers taking legal action against the police for interfering with private activities between consenting adults?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:09 pm 
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I spent Tuesday evening at the Toy Chest and there was no mention of any raid and everything was available from the dancers I talked to in the VIP.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Looking at a Detroit police blotter posting the only thing happening was in October when police were called for a vandalized vehicle and a simple assault .... someone may have seen police and just assumed a raid.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:24 pm 
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there are 2 officers that come in on a regular basis. some customer that didn't know what was going on probably started a rumor about a raid, just as person above said. never seen a "raid" go down here.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:15 pm 
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WAS THERE LAST NIGHT STILL SAME OLD BUSINESS ASUSUAL. 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:37 pm 
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ummmmm
I have to comment on the post five up from this one. Electroman.
One the legal beagles on this board would have to address your question about precedence,
but there can't be any question that groping, fondling etc. are illegal activities.
Yea the police likely have better things to do, but at the same time if they know about
illegal activities taking place they are obliged to do something about it. Not agreeing with it,
but I would bet many of the participants on this board could get in trouble.
another safe bet is that every single person that ever got a traffic ticket no matter how
lousy their driving thought the cop had more important "things to do"


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Talleyrand. I guess my question had to do with the concept of privacy. I assume that police could not break in to a private residence and arrest Consenting adults for mutual fondling or even sex. Would this protection extend to a hotel room? So why does this protection of privacy rights not extend to a private area at a strip club?

I'm not questioning that this is a common police action. Just wondering where the legal line is drawn and how to push back on government and law enforcement incursions into private rights.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Electronman wrote:
Talleyrand. I guess my question had to do with the concept of privacy. I assume that police could not break in to a private residence and arrest Consenting adults for mutual fondling or even sex. Would this protection extend to a hotel room? So why does this protection of privacy rights not extend to a private area at a strip club?

I'm not questioning that this is a common police action. Just wondering where the legal line is drawn and how to push back on government and law enforcement incursions into private rights.


Because a strip club is a legal business establishment whereas a private residence (house, apartment, etc) is not. Police along with other forms of authorities have a legal duty to make sure businesses are following rules. For example, I don't expect a health inspector to come force itself into my apartment; but if I were, say, a restaurant owner, that's something that would be expected and mandatory. Also, if the two consenting adults in the private residence scenario were breaking the law, they may be at risk for having that privacy taken away from them.

Strip clubs are sexually oriented businesses, and sex there is illegal, so obviously there are going to be people policing the sexual nature of the job and taking legal action if laws were broken. Just like when I was a cocktail waitress we would always have to be aware of possible sting operations ticketing us for serving minors or not checking IDs because it was a bar and alcohol was the main selling point. Occasionally that serving of alcohol would be policed and if anyone broke the laws, actions would be taken. That's what happens when you run a business, it's subject to inspection and law enforcement.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Electronman, perhaps the answer you are looking for is that the Police can obtain a warrant if they can show a reasonable expectation that there is illegal activity taking place inside. That would prove a tougher thing to do for a private residence that they do not normally have access to but for a public or business location it shouldn't be of much difficulty.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:59 am 
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stinking search warrant for a topless joint, they don't need.
any kind of complaint* could get them interested and they would just move
maybe with stealth.
The crazier these places get w extras etc, the more likely a patron is to get nailed.

*
outraged parent of fallen angel,
little darling that thinks she was shortchanged by mgt or assaulted by patron,
neighbors,
public health.
on and on ...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Nina wrote:
Electronman wrote:
Talleyrand. I guess my question had to do with the concept of privacy. I assume that police could not break in to a private residence and arrest Consenting adults for mutual fondling or even sex. Would this protection extend to a hotel room? So why does this protection of privacy rights not extend to a private area at a strip club?

I'm not questioning that this is a common police action. Just wondering where the legal line is drawn and how to push back on government and law enforcement incursions into private rights.


Because a strip club is a legal business establishment whereas a private residence (house, apartment, etc) is not. Police along with other forms of authorities have a legal duty to make sure businesses are following rules. For example, I don't expect a health inspector to come force itself into my apartment; but if I were, say, a restaurant owner, that's something that would be expected and mandatory. Also, if the two consenting adults in the private residence scenario were breaking the law, they may be at risk for having that privacy taken away from them.

Strip clubs are sexually oriented businesses, and sex there is illegal,
so obviously there are going to be people policing the sexual nature of the job and taking legal action if laws were broken. Just like when I was a cocktail waitress we would always have to be aware of possible sting operations ticketing us for serving minors or not checking IDs because it was a bar and alcohol was the main selling point. Occasionally that serving of alcohol would be policed and if anyone broke the laws, actions would be taken. That's what happens when you run a business, it's subject to inspection and law enforcement.


Nina, Tallyrand and others. I understand that sex between consenting adults becomes illegal according to state laws when money is explicitly exchanged for sexual services (I don't happen to agree with those laws but that's another topic). What I was asking about concerns the venue under which sexual contact occurs and the concept of privacy and individual rights. Start with the assumption that money is not being exchanged and that the adults are consenting. Under those conditions, sex (including fondling) is legal. Right? You would not expect police incursions into your home, your hotel room or your office (yep, people have trysts in their office) to issue citations for having sex or other forms of sexual contact. I also understand that you cannot legally have sex in public, like on a bus or in a public park. My question was where is the line drawn between public and private venues and where should a strip club (or a private room in the strip club) fall on this continuum?

I know that most strip clubs have few if any windows so the accidental exposure of a non-consenting public to potentially offensive strip club activities (partial or full nudity, heavens forbid) is unlikely. Presumably, anyone entering a strip club does so with the understanding that they are willing to view scantily clad performers and possibly have some physical contact (even of a non-sexual nature) with these performers. So, if a patron is sitting in a strip club and touching a dancer's arm, leg or even breast, with that dancer's consent and without the explicit exchange of money for such contact, is it appropriate for the police to issue a citation for inappropriate touching (whatever that entails) as was reported about the Toy Chest raid? By the way, my depiction of the Toy Chest raid is all second and third hand reports-- I was not there, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of the reports.

Said another way, I'd like to see some "push back" on law enforcement incursions into what should be a private and perfectly legal activity-- absent the explicit exchange of money, sex and fondling between consenting adults in a private setting (of course strip clubs may not qualify as private?) should be legal and protected from law enforcement intrusion.

Then the followup question would focus on what activities should be allowed versus prohibited when money is exchanged. It is legal to pay a person to dance for you--- some prefer ballet, others Dancing with the Stars and others strippers in a club. It is legal to pay a person to engage in services that involve physical contact-- massage therapists, physicians, but the line is drawn with contact of a sexual nature. We can all read the relevant laws but there is still lots of room for interpretation. Should a person be cited for allowing a dancer to sit on his or her lap or for touching a dancer's leg (assuming consent was obtained)-- as was reported to have occurred in the Toy Chest raid? I know that LE can do many things (including issue citations for illegal contact if a dancer is sitting on a patron's lap) but the question focuses on "should" and the potential for push back to limit incursions of LE into protected individual rights.

Sorry for the lengthy post.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Electronman, I do believe you are looking for an answer that keeps changing. LE if they suspect something illegal is taking place has the right to investigate. A citation is written when they believe they have found an illegal activity, but you are not guilty until a judge says so. So that says that LE doesn't need proof of anything they just need to suspect. You are engaged in an activity that may or may not be sexual and you may or may not have paid for that activity to happen, they need only to suspect what is happening, a judge decides if they were correct. A club can file a complaint of harassment if LE makes to many ventures into their place looking for illegal activities and not finding any. You could file for harassment as well if LE seems to be paying more than normal attention to you. Much of what you are questioning about privacy fits in only as a defense when speaking with the judge. If you choose to argue with LE in the field you will most likely loose so don't bother. Warrants are issued for reasons, to look for a illegal activity in a club and LE is then allowed to look anywhere in the club that could be going on. A private room isn't any more private during a search than the main stage is. With the wonders of technology privacy is fast becoming a thing of the past. A warrant is needed to tap your phone line, but if you use a cordless phone they can listen in with out a warrant. Send something via internet and it is likely stored forever and no warrant is needed to look at that either. In a argument of privacy verses safety the cards are stacked towards safety. Feel free to fight the good fight to change any of this but know that a good fight for freedom often ends with the loss of your freedom for one reason or another.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:05 am 
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Good reply Model T, especially the observation about the different functions of LE and the judiciary and the frequent conflict between safety and privacy. Nevertheless, I feel sorry for the customers and dancers who were reportedly cited for inappropriate touching based on a dancer sitting in the customer's lap in the main club. Assuming that the report was accurate, that seems like an infringement on personal rights and and abuse of power on the part of LE. It does have serious consequences for the customer and dancer even if a judge eventually dismisses the charges.

For example, being arrested for an offense and having that arrest publicized in the media can be damaging even if the judge eventually clears the person who was accused by LE of a crime. It is not a good parallel to the Toy Chest incident but recall the Dominque Strauss-Kahn (DSK) case-- the French politician who was head of the International Monetary Fund and was accused of rape by a worker at a NYC hotel. The charges were eventually dropped but not before he resigned as head of the International Monetary Fund. It is not a good parallel because in the DSK case, the media sensationalized the arrest and LE acted appropriately; in the Toy Chest case, I feel that LE abused their power. But the DSK case illustrates the potential for being damaged by an arrest, even if the charges are eventually dismissed. One way to constrain the abuse of power by LE and protect individual rights is to file harassment or wrongful arrest complaints.


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